Virtual Airlines and the Law

[MCS@celestialairvirtual]

I very interesting article but......is there any evidence of this actually happening. I have never heard of a VA shutting down a real world airline?

If this was really an issue American, United, British Airways and well all airlines would shut down VA "copies"...

[joeri]

I very interesting article but......is there any evidence of this actually happening. I have never heard of a VA shutting down a real world airline?

If this was really an issue American, United, British Airways and well all airlines would shut down VA "copies"...

when i first started out in the va world after being a mmeber for so long i sended out 5 emails to 5 different reallive airlines in belgium/netherlands 1 never replied,3 gave a verry strait awnser(you are not allowed to use our name and logo and we will take correct actions against you iff you fail to comply) it was a longer mail but this is the short version, and 1 airline gave me the permission.

scroll to an earlyer post Mark also mentions legal action.

so there is evidence

[MCS@celestialairvirtual]

when i first started out in the va world after being a mmeber for so long i sended out 5 emails to 5 different reallive airlines in belgium/netherlands 1 never replied,3 gave a verry strait awnser(you are not allowed to use our name and logo and we will take correct actions against you iff you fail to comply) it was a longer mail but this is the short version, and 1 airline gave me the permission.

scroll to an earlyer post Mark also mentions legal action.

so there is evidence

Most certainly there is evidence supporting rw airlines dislike for VA's using the name. And I truly understand there concern because I mean honestly especially today the last things airlines need are thing that interrupt and negatively effect there business.

I just mean is there evidence actually showing that the scenario(VA able to shut down a rw airline possible)ever occurred. I just don't see the likely hood of this extreme happening under the current status quo. Sure I has business has be hurt I just meant evidence proving the extreme suggested by the creator of this thread. As well as rw airlines just simply don't like anyone uses there name,logo,etc. because they worked hard to develop their brand and are....well....capitalists by nature:)

That is all I meant I wasn't questioning the fundamentals of the principle argument that rw airlines can be effected by VA's, I agree with that to an extent.

...I say if you want to avoid all of this then start up your own VA not based on a rw counterpart.(Still watch out for copyrights etc.)

Best Regards,

Michael

[joeri]

I just mean is there evidence actually showing that the scenario(VA able to shut down a rw airline possible)ever occurred. I just don't see the likely hood of this extreme happening under the current status quo. Sure I has business has be hurt I just meant evidence proving the extreme suggested by the creator of this thread. As well as rw airlines just simply don't like anyone uses there name,logo,etc. because they worked hard to develop their brand and are....well....capitalists by nature:)

i also belive Simpilot recived a leeter from the lawjers off westjet and old va off him to close. he has a blog on it iff its still alive i don't know

[TAV1702]

In one of the flight sim e-publications that come out monthly, I read about a virtual airline that opened up and was on the net for around 8 or 9 months and suddenly a real world airline opened up and stole the virtual airlines name and likeliness. Once the real world airline found out about the virtual airline, they threw a fit and had their lawyers send a letter to them to shut it down or else. Well, they never did and the or else happened. They ended up in court. The man who ran the VA got a lawyer and all information together and off they went fighting it out.

In the end, the real world airline lost in court and if they wanted the name and likeliness, they had to buy the rights from the VA owner. The VA owner did not agree and made some serious cash off of the deal for the airline ripping him off.

So the law works both ways. If it is yours it's yours. If it is not, it is not. Simple as that. Like everyone else has pointed out, get a legal agreement or all your work in the end is for nothing.

[simpilot]

Yes, I had legal action threatened from WestJet Ltd. about a year ago now. I had sent numerous requests for an agreement with no response and figured since there was other WJA virtual's running including one with an agreement it was just a matter of time till I received something from the airline myself and started building the site. (First Mistake) Our site became virtualWestJets and I used their basic colors and modified their logo (second mistake) and built a site around those two things. After a few months and around 100 pilot signups I received an email from the site owner (also an employee of WJA Ltd., unknown to me at that point) running the WJA virtual with the agreement with WJA Ltd. wanting to "merge", after all his site had been in neglect for a period of time and was nearly inactive and I had activity. I said no (third mistake) and that I had tried to offer to redo his site originally and was snubbed, then the roof came down. A cease and desist letter from the corporate council of WJA Ltd landed in my email within a week of my no. After checking that the letter and lawyers were legitimate I went to my own company council and got the bad news, I was not in the left seat on this one. His recommendations to me were to shut it down as they requested and not make much noise about it, the only thing that was really questionable was the request to turn over the domain name to them. It did not matter that I was in a different country than the airline, that I was not profiting from the va, or any other argument I could think of. I took the site down and set up a blog to vent my frustration and sent my own long letter back to them agreeing to their terms outside of the domain release, I thought I could make them want to give me the agreement by launching a publicity war on my blog (fourth mistake), I approached media outlets in Canada with no success and finally realized it was a losing battle no matter how I sliced it, it crossed my mind for a moment to pre-pay the domain for ten years and just put a static image of "no-carentee here!" on it, but that would have been another mistake. I let the domain expire this year and moved on.

We already had a strong group that wanted to continue and we decided to create a new site, but I used the knowledge gained from the WJA circus to try and do it right.

What did I do?

The new va mirrors a real world Canadian carrier but uses no logos, fonts, maps, images, or anything else that can be linked back to the real world counterpart. There is no mention of the real world airline name in any html text on the site for crawlers to find. The name is not used in our url, only the call sign, which the average Joe is probably not going to even realize the connection. There are a few, very few, images of fs screenshots depicting aircraft liveries of the real world airline, but no real world pictures. I used red, their company color base, but did not combine it with their other base color. I did not use a dot com address. There is no link to the real world airline on the site, so there are no connections for a crawler to make to the real world counterpart, not to mention they will not see traffic from the site to theirs.

Could I get shut down? Possibly, but I do not think I will running in this fashion. Bottom line, if you are going to use names and logos among other things from a real world company, plan on trouble in the long run unless you enter into a written agreement with them. This is not one of these "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission" situations. Even with an agreement, things change, people change, and goodness knows lawyers change their minds, don't ever be surprised at the knock on the door.

[chris2]

So if i wanted to do a XL Airways UK Virtual what would any of this apply to it. Because XL Airways UK went into administration in 2008 There is still XL airways france and germany. Would i need to get pomission from them or will i need any pomission from them at all?

thanks

[mark1million]

In answer to your question,

http://www.markify.com/trademarks/ctm/xl+airways/005359492

Its registered and active until 2016, so i would contact the registrant for permission.

[chris2]

So could i do CYPRUS AIRWAYS with out getting pomission from them becaust there trade mark ended in June this year

http://www.markify.com/trademarks/ctm/cyprus%20airways/002729473

[mark1million]

Any real airline you need to get a letter of consent or licence for using their brand or they could come after you and close you down.

If they renew their trademark then they could stop you from using it.

[chris2]

If i sent email to xl: info@xl.com and they dont reply could i then continue to do XL Airways UK Virtual and they carnt hold us responsible? Just something from a freind and wanted to see if you know anymore of if its right

[mark1million]

You need to get permission in writing from them is you wish to use their logos. Check on the register is the word or words XL Airways UK is registered.

Let me put it another way, you can just go ahead and create the thing but you will be always waiting for that letter saying you are infringing our intellectual property, cease and desist.

Just some friendly advise from someone that knows a thing or too about it

[chris2]

What if i called it: XLA UK Virtual? Would that still be braking the laws?

[mark1million]

Grey area, wouldn't want to really comment to be honest.

[Virtualei]

wish i had seen all this before starting up my va. If i purchased a new domain of my own away from real world airlines would i have to start from scratch or could i just move my cpanel and files etc to the different domain.

[flyalaska]

You can move all your files to the new domain. Cpanel is set with your host.

[MrAmsterdam]

i wonder if they could take me our of service.. i do have screenshots with repaints of KLM, delta, virgin etc posted by pilots.

Hm, i am running serious-airlines.nl in the past and now serious-airlines.com from about 4 years now. no one ever complained. Maybe because i only have a dozen of members :-D

Regards

lucas

[Tom]

i wonder if they could take me our of service.. i do have screenshots with repaints of KLM, delta, virgin etc posted by pilots.

Hm, i am running serious-airlines.nl in the past and now serious-airlines.com from about 4 years now. no one ever complained. Maybe because i only have a dozen of members :-D

Regards

lucas

Posting screenshots of repaints is fine - the repaints exist and have had no attempt to take them down. It's like putting photographs of their aircraft on your own site. As long as what you're doing can't be seen as confusing someone into believing you are (part of) their company.

[vcal]

Yup that can be a sticky wicket, just because an airline has ceased trading dont assume no-one holds a tm on the name. British Caledonian is a good example, start that and BA wil shut you down quicker than dutch man with a cheap prostitute!

I found this thread by accident whilst looking for something else.

How does this work when an airlines name changing through the likes of a merger?

Caledonian Airways and BUA = British Caledonian

[cloudsurferuk]

I found this thread by accident whilst looking for something else.

How does this work when an airlines name changing through the likes of a merger?

Caledonian Airways and BUA = British Caledonian

The new owner usually retains rights to the name. I believe caledonian names are owned by BA.

[cloudsurferuk]

The new owner usually retains rights to the name. I believe caledonian names are owned by BA.