Virtual Airlines and the Law

[cloudsurferuk]

Ok, Let's start this post off by stating this post is only covering the law in england and wales (UK). This post has come about after an interesting post meeting

discussion with my company lawyer regarding virtual airlines copying real world counterparts.

I showed the lawyer several UK virtual airlines that mirror real world counterparts (some part of VA central, some not) and whilst he had no idea that these things existed (he has little interest in FS) he was actually extremely suprised that they were there at all. The crux of the matter, as he explained it, is simple business protection.

Now lets say Airline A is a succesful british airline doing well and is primarily web based for sales and ticketing. Now someone decides to start Virtual Airline A in total good faith and just as a hobby, one could even argue it was a "fan site". How Airline A being a popular airline means that Virtual Airline A gains lots of members from Simmers wanting to mirror the real world ops, as a result Virtual Airline A creeps up search engine rankings and gets linked to from other sites. Now, stick with me here as this is where the problem comes...

Mr X wants to fly to Palma so he sticks Airline A into google and up pop's loads of hits, including one to Virtual Airline A which he clicks on, now, he is a little confused as he can register but he cant book a ticket (he's a bit slow and doesnt see the little link to the real Airline A at the bottom in 8pt text!) and as a result he gets annoyed and books with Airline B.

Now all of a sudden, Airline A is losing customers! Airline A decides to trawl around the web (as airlines do) and discovers Virtual Airline A using its name, images and colour scheme. Next stop a cease and desist letter. Now virtual airline A could argue the point, even take the matter to court (if you have a few thousand to spare!) but the chances of winning are a million to one on the simple basis that when Airline A started it spent hundreds of thousands protecting its brand and Names, Logo's even colour schemes are copyrighted and trademarked.

SO, bottom line is Virtual Airline A is closed down, all its members have spent months flying for nothing and alot of people arent happy.

Can this be avoided? Well yes, quite simply. Do NOT start a VA that mirrors a real world airline in looks, name or logo without first having a written agreement with the real world airline. SO far only one VA has this, that is BA Virtual. In the last 6 years there have been 17 Easyjet VA's, 21 Virtual BMI's, 8 Virtual BA's, 18 Virtual Thomsons and alot more that have started and been shut down. That I think speaks volume's in itself.

Now you can argue that your website contains disclaimers stating that it isnt the real Airline A etc but they arent worth the screen space they are written on unfortunately and whilst VA's continue to blatently flought the law in this way, it will further drive a wedge between the real world and virtual world of aviation and airlines will just shut down VA's without any thought for their members.

Could you get an agreement? It's not impossible as BA Virtual have shown but that took over 2 years of negotiation with several BA employee's driving the idea. Your Average Joe getting an agreement from say Easyjet or BMI would be nigh on impossible without spending £1000'S on legal fee's.

So, whats the point of this post? Well, again its simple, if you're thinking of starting a virtual airline, think very carefully, and dont just start something that mirrors a real world airline as it WILL be shut down, maybe not straight away, maybe not in months, it could even be years but eventually, they will find you, and they will take action leaving you with lots of unhappy members.

So why not be creative, create your own brand or like several others, an FS community VA. It's the only way you can be sure you will still be there in 6 months! and if your joining a VA, be very careful who you choose, that nice build up of hours might one day just disapear!

But if you do decide to start Virtual Airline A, well.. dont come running to the forums when your cease & desist letter arrives!

[Nabeel]

I moved this to general.

But saying all that, it would be simple for a VA to say this is not the real airline, this is only a simulation. Perhaps a landing page saying that if you meant to go to the real airline, go here, if you want the VA, then go there. IMO that's a simple way to solve that dilemma. Though I can still see a 'brand degradation' of some VA derivative run by some random person who think it's not a big deal to not do things completely professionally.

I think running a VA is a bit like running a business, wherein you don't piggyback your name on someone else, just as you wouldn't with a real-world business. VA world is rather large from the amount of traffic and interest just vaCentral is getting, it comes down to marketing and offering smart features and incentives.

[CPC900]

That is why I like running under a 'real' name, but an old one that doesn't exist anymore

[cloudsurferuk]

I moved this to general.

But saying all that, it would be simple for a VA to say this is not the real airline, this is only a simulation. Perhaps a landing page saying that if you meant to go to the real airline, go here, if you want the VA, then go there. IMO that's a simple way to solve that dilemma. Though I can still see a 'brand degradation' of some VA derivative run by some random person who think it's not a big deal to not do things completely professionally.

I think running a VA is a bit like running a business, wherein you don't piggyback your name on someone else, just as you wouldn't with a real-world business. VA world is rather large from the amount of traffic and interest just vaCentral is getting, it comes down to marketing and offering smart features and incentives.

Yeah thanks for moving it, was debating where to put it originally. Saying your not the real airline or having a landing page are "simple solutions" in theory but in reality, and again, am only speaking for British Airlines/Law here, it just wont work. In the UK if the real world airline see's a virtual airline using its name, brand design or logo it will just move swiftly to shut it down and the chances of getting a post action agreement are zero. As we all know, and largely thanks you your superb framework nabeel, its very easy for anyone to setup a professionally looking Virtual Airline, however, this doesnt give us licence to operate outside of the law. My "day job" is digital media and as such deal with IP rights on a regular basis and companies just invest to much money in brand and marketing to risk just one hit finding the wrong website. As with the main post I wont be specific but I know of at least 3 VA's that are part of VA Central which I would be willing to bet large sums of money will be shut down within 6 months (or sued if stupid enough to not shut down when requested). We can put all the fancy things in disclaimers and have disclaimers 3000 words long but again, they just arent worth the pixels they occupy in a legal situation.

I am not sure how things work Stateside but I know American Airlines are ultra hot on things like this. I guess my main point on all this is enjoy the hobby, enjoy running a virtual airline but dont assume you operate outside of the law and infringe copyright just because its a "hobby" or "not for profit". The law still applies, and will be applied with equal force. My hope however, is someone reading this thinks twice and starts a VA with creativity, which will last as there are just too many fly by night VA's in the world (most of which are closed by airlines!).

[mark1million]

Excellent point of view, but simply get permission from the real world airline you wish to emulate Job done problem sorted.

Oh and i know Andrew Harrison which helps...

[cloudsurferuk]

That is why I like running under a 'real' name, but an old one that doesn't exist anymore

That is a good solution and should be encouraged. There is alot of good airlines no longer with us and a bankrupt airline cant sue you!

[cloudsurferuk]

Excellent point of view, but simply get permission from the real world airline you wish to emulate Job done problem sorted.

Oh and i know Andrew Harrison which helps...

How does knowing the chief exec of Whitbread help? Well, at least he will be in a matter if days. lol. But your post raises an interesting point, Yeah sure, someone at, in your case, Easyjet could (unlikely but could) raise no objection in principle but unless you have a rock solid legally negotiated contract of co-operation then you wont have a leg to stand on when they decide to close you down when the legal eyes get a peek. The simple fact is this (and I have to be careful here because this is not aimed at any one VA, or supposed to be derogatory to anyone, merely food for thought in VA land) again using your example Easyjet spent over £6m on branding and marketing in 2007, I know cos I got some of it! and a company that spends that sort of cash on a brand will not risk anyone else using it in anyway.

[mark1million]

How does knowing the chief exec of Whitbread help? He's departed Easyjet now lol. But your post raises an interesting point, Yeah sure, someone at, in your case, Easyjet could (unlikely but could) raise no objection in principle but unless you have a rock solid legally negotiated contract of co-operation then you wont have a leg to stand on when they decide to close you down when the legal eyes get a peek. The simple fact is this (and I have to be careful here because this is not aimed at any one VA, or supposed to be derogatory to anyone, merely food for thought in VA land) again using your example Easyjet spent over £6m on branding and marketing in 2007, I know cos I got some of it! and a company that spends that sort of cash on a brand will not risk anyone else using it in anyway.

He left in March 2010, we saught permission a long time before that, back in August 2009. But you are quite right in what you say, so it is worth getting permission before you waste 100's of hours of developing time.

[dale0404]

Excellent point of view, but simply get permission from the real world airline you wish to emulate Job done problem sorted.

Oh and i know Andrew Harrison which helps...

I spoke to Robin Hood (the Errol Flynn version) and the Sheriff of Nottingham because of the name of my VA. They had no problems with it as long as they took a slice of the action, go figure!!

[savagegrave]

When I first came into the VA world 18 months ago I spent alot of time reading about how to set up airlines....

Based in the UK myself I found little information and relied on information regarding the issue of "Real Life" airlines suing VA managers etc. The problem is the VA world outside the FS community is still in the shadows, and since 9/11 its been hidden away even more (So I can see)...

My First airline was going to be a BA virtual, (yes another one). Anyway, When I left my first va (US based) to start my own, the CEO advised me of a letter he recieved from Delta (the name he was using before i joined) explaining what you have already posted...

A couple of emails to British Airways, Easy Jet, BMI, Monarch, Tompson, Thomas Cook (list goes on) later I finally came up with Imagine Airways. One airline however allow me to use their name (forget which) but there were restrictions, such as correct fleet types, schedules and flight times when creating the schedules. Also they wanted a .co.uk / .com website that themselves could have access too and I had to have in a min of 14pt text on the top half of the front page say this was a virtual airline and link back to their main site...

While they were happy with the idea of me creating a VA of theirs the copy-right and restrictions for creative lisense was far too tight for my liking... afterall the point of a VA is to have fun in a controlled enviroment is it not?

Now here is my problem and 2pence worth,

From what ive dug up looking around the internet, a way around the legal position is, change the name, but use their flight schedules... While I'm still hunting dep / arr times for Virgin and BA there are loads of sites regarding fleet regisitrations and schedules flown.

It would be interesting to know if other va's doing what I am doing could also technically be sued by using "Real Life" registrations and simulate airlines under a "fake" name...

I know for a fact that VA Hosting such as fsairlines.net (for example) will actually close a VA down before any pilot takes to the skies, if the "CEO" can not provide documentation from the airline it is copying so it protects not just itself but the guys/gals running the VA.

I do think there needs to be more information within the VA world, regarding the legal position of using Real Life airline names. Maybe those that have experienced such difficulties and have failed, along with those that have taken the years like BA virtual and succeeded could produce hints and tips, aswell as sharing the legal roadblocks they have come across.

Anyway thats my feeling having only been in the VA world for a couple of years.

Steve

[CrashGordon]

There is alot of good airlines no longer with us and a bankrupt airline cant sue you!

Au contraire. Whoever is the legal owner of that airline's copyrights and trademarks, can certainly act to prevent their infringement.

[TAV1702]

Au contraire. Whoever is the legal owner of that airline's copyrights and trademarks, can certainly act to prevent their infringement.

That is a fact. First hand experience here.

My Little website which only has 3 people on it was contacted VERY recently about it's name. I jumped through hoops for a couple of days on this subject. When I talked to the man who owned the small FBO at KSUS, we talked about a friend of mine in St Louis who originally opened the VA back in 2002. Him and my buddy were best friends. I told him since my ol' pal dropped off the face of the Earth, I was working on a site for just me or others to use and we went through the whole VA thing and from there,once again, as we did with him back in 2002, and I was "Cleared for take off" (Pun Intended). Got everything I needed for future reference if the need arises. The man closed shop in August of 2006 of last year. It was never an airline to begin with. It was all maintenance on aircraft.

So yes, one will act quick to protect the copyrights and trademarks no matter what.

[Nabeel]

So yes, one will act quick to protect the copyrights and trademarks no matter what.

Very understandable. I always keep an eye out on the phpVMS name as well too, the same with vaCentral

[CrashGordon]

Very understandable. I always keep an eye out on the phpVMS name as well too, the same with vaCentral

Suggestion...place a small superscripted TM after both phpVMS a vaCentral. It gives you trademark protection even if it hasn't been registered.

[Nabeel]

Suggestion...place a small superscripted TM after both phpVMS a vaCentral. It gives you trademark protection even if it hasn't been registered.

Thanks, will do!

[cloudsurferuk]

Au contraire. Whoever is the legal owner of that airline's copyrights and trademarks, can certainly act to prevent their infringement.

Yup that can be a sticky wicket, just because an airline has ceased trading dont assume no-one holds a tm on the name. British Caledonian is a good example, start that and BA wil shut you down quicker than dutch man with a cheap prostitute!

[cloudsurferuk]

Suggestion...place a small superscripted TM after both phpVMS a vaCentral. It gives you trademark protection even if it hasn't been registered.

It may in the US but it would offer no legal protection in the UK, unless its a properly registered trademark you may as well put FUBAR after the name. Although, phpVMS is automatically protected under copyright as original work as is any piece of original work.

[Mysterious Pilot]

Now all of a sudden, Airline A is losing customers! Airline A decides to trawl around the web (as airlines do) and discovers Virtual Airline A using its name, images and colour scheme. Next stop a cease and desist letter. Now virtual airline A could argue the point, even take the matter to court (if you have a few thousand to spare!) but the chances of winning are a million to one on the simple basis that when Airline A started it spent hundreds of thousands protecting its brand and Names, Logo's even colour schemes are copyrighted and trademarked.

Yet another reason why we should put a

<meta name="robots" content="nofollow,noindex"/>

on the document header. It would cause that search engine robots do not index the page or the links in it so the VA won't appear on search results. Sure, you won't get much traffic from the web but that is a small price to pay to protect your head a bit from what CloudSurferUK said about the VA's "brand" overshadowing the real brand.

[Tom]

Nice bump...

[cloudsurferuk]

You know I should do the lottery numbers! Without naming names, once again a VA started copying a real world airline (despite claiming they had an agreement) and yet seem baffled that the real airline is shutting them down. It is SIMPLE BRAND PROTECTION. With the exception of BA Virtual *which took 5 years of negotiation* no British virtual airline has ever been approved or allowed by its real world counterpart, why would they? it has no business use to them, could confuse customers and at worst, hurt sales.

I say again, going to start a single airline VA based on a real world Airline? Simply take your money out to the garden and set fire to it as you will just lose it all when you get shut down.

[joeri]

what you are saying is not true i have seen other UK British airlines with approvement.

as for your mention that starting an airline with an reallive counter part is not a goodf thing to do you again are wrong its just a mather off making correct agreements nothing more or less

[cloudsurferuk]

what you are saying is not true i have seen other UK British airlines with approvement.

as for your mention that starting an airline with an realative counter part is not a good thing to do you again are wrong its just a mather off making correct agreements nothing more or less

You are right to disagree, but I have seen no other airline apart from BA with a tested legal agreement in place. Afterall, what VA can afford to hire the relevant solicitors to do this. It might be one thing having an email saying "we dont mind" but that is not a legal agreement in any form and the airline can just say sorry, please shut.

The truth is, most airlines just don't get Virtual Airlines and many of the smaller ones don't object, initially, till it starts affecting their web traffic. The proof is on the internet, time and time and time again we see VA's starting up, BMI, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Easyjet etc etc and time and time and time again we see BMI, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Easyjet etc etc closed by their real counterparts.

If anyone wants to start up a VA based on one real airline and copying their trademarks etc fine. Just don't moan about it when you you get shut down.

Copyright and Trademark are the main issues and companies spend hundreds of thousands of pounds protecting that which is why they shut down Bob and his £20 domain which bears its name or logo's. I say again, having an email saying we don't mind does NOT constitute a legal agreement and in reality, is worthless.

[stuartpb]

Just curious, but after you have said all this, your website features trademarked and copyrighted logos, so did you (or your VA) gain legal authority from the owners of these materials to replicate these for your VA site?

[mark1million]

This is interesting, i myself are having in-depth discussions with easyjet's legal bods, after nearly 2 years of operation they have decided they no longer want me even using the name "easy", this has been ongoing for months now.

We all know how aggressively easyjet "protect the brand" and its coming down to semantics, a game of words and copyright law.

In discussions it has come up about many other VA using the easyjet logo and even painters painting fleets, Im afraid the can has just been opened and its about to get interesting.

Some of you may have noticed my sites name change, most of you wouldn't have, easyjet decided after other VA's popping up and after over 18 months that they would enforce their right and close or threaten legal proceedings to anyone with the wording which is protected as a trademark easy.

The battle continues

[stuartpb]

I finished an ICT & the Law module as part of my degree course last month, and a large part of the module was concerned with trademark and copyright protection. It is an interesting subject, and one which is ever more important nowadays, as it's so easy to fall foul of the regulations. I can understand airlines wanting to protect their brand, and also understand why they will contest unauthorised usage. Having said that though, I think that a serious and established VA community (like yours Mark) built around a real world airline is something that the real world airlines should encourage. There are positives for both parties in doing so. The trouble is though, that we keep seeing half baked VAs popping up, where the owners have ripped a real world VA name and branding, and spent no time in both planning and execution, and I can see why they would be very concerned about that type of VA.

[cloudsurferuk]

Just curious, but after you have said all this, your website features trademarked and copyrighted logos, so did you (or your VA) gain legal authority from the owners of these materials to replicate these for your VA site?

Fair use and Clear definition. Simple as that.

[cloudsurferuk]

I finished an ICT & the Law module as part of my degree course last month, and a large part of the module was concerned with trademark and copyright protection. It is an interesting subject, and one which is ever more important nowadays, as it's so easy to fall foul of the regulations. I can understand airlines wanting to protect their brand, and also understand why they will contest unauthorised usage. Having said that though, I think that a serious and established VA community (like yours Mark) built around a real world airline is something that the real world airlines should encourage. There are positives for both parties in doing so. The trouble is though, that we keep seeing half baked VAs popping up, where the owners have ripped a real world VA name and branding, and spent no time in both planning and execution, and I can see why they would be very concerned about that type of VA.

That's my point exactly, and why I said airlines just don't understand Virtual Airlines which is why there is a pretty much blanket no.

[cloudsurferuk]

Another aspect that Mark mentions is aircraft painting, afterall, in Just Flight's Traffic all the AA aircraft had to be liveried MERICAN for exactly that reason. It is an absolute minefield and their is a fine line between fair use and copyright breach. But I still maintain the fact that if you set up virtualBMI.com for example and use branding without a legal agreement (not just an email saying we dont mind) then you will get shut down.

Perhaps airlines need to start looking upon VA's as "fan clubs" per se and we may get some more approval, provided of course its a valid and well executed operation as stuart says.

[joeri]

Another aspect that Mark mentions is aircraft painting, afterall, in Just Flight's Traffic all the AA aircraft had to be liveried MERICAN for exactly that reason. It is an absolute minefield and their is a fine line between fair use and copyright breach. But I still maintain the fact that if you set up virtualBMI.com for example and use branding without a legal agreement (not just an email saying we dont mind) then you will get shut down.

Perhaps airlines need to start looking upon VA's as "fan clubs" per se and we may get some more approval, provided of course its a valid and well executed operation as stuart says.

like you state the line between fair use and copyright is so thin but then again what i i take a picture with my 50mpix high zoom optical camera off an airline and post it online on my blog. again the compagnies schould embrace VA's that are worked out correctly

i have an agreement with my reallive counterpart. we strongly work together so our website reflects their standarts(we are building on this one ) in the past i could do what i want untull i recived a letter from their analysis devision a nice letter with alll the things we needed to change.

now i have meetings at regular time intervals to make sure we obay our end and they do on their. wez get regular visits to the main TNT hub in leige when their is a lanparty we get goodys from them to pas out . next year on the compagny open day we will go with our flight computer ans let visitors do some predefinned setups like take off and landing a 747. they get good PR and we get a small but nice VA (www.tnt-virtual.be) some sneaky publicity

[cloudsurferuk]

like you state the line between fair use and copyright is so thin but then again what i i take a picture with my 50mpix high zoom optical camera off an airline and post it online on my blog. again the compagnies schould embrace VA's that are worked out correctly

i have an agreement with my reallive counterpart. we strongly work together so our website reflects their standarts(we are building on this one ) in the past i could do what i want untull i recived a letter from their analysis devision a nice letter with alll the things we needed to change.

now i have meetings at regular time intervals to make sure we obay our end and they do on their. wez get regular visits to the main TNT hub in leige when their is a lanparty we get goodys from them to pas out . next year on the compagny open day we will go with our flight computer ans let visitors do some predefinned setups like take off and landing a 747. they get good PR and we get a small but nice VA (www.tnt-virtual.be) some sneaky publicity

that's great news, I did say at the beginning of this that it applies to mainly British operations, European airlines do tend to be a bit more lenient, it certainly sounds like you have a great relationship with TNT which is fantastic, if only more airlines were like that. Perhaps this is also because of it being a cargo airline and the concerns of passengers being mislead with a VA's website is negated?

I think certain replies have indicated people feel I am moaning or targeting other VA's for my own end's which is simply not true, I wrote this post for information and to offer some advice to someone thinking of starting up, after all, I was in this position myself about 10 years ago, just when VA's were becoming mainstream and learnt alot from it, and from the legal case itself. (for those interested, the Airline in question actually paid me to shut down in the end but I have no doubt, if the case had gone to court, I would have lost)

It is notable for discussion however, just stop taking it personally people!