any VA without ACARS?

[mischka]

Hello

I was just wondering the other day if there are any VA's that don't require their pilots to use an ACARS system?

Most VA's require their pilots to submit some 'proof' that they did the flight by using ACARS and submitting the log, or submitting a tracker log from vatsim and the like.

But honestly, why would a pilot lie/cheat about doing a flight?

Reason I'm asking is that even though I wrote a pretty fool-proof guide on how to configure kACARS and xACARS for use with my VA, some pilots still struggle with it or the software causes other problems, so I'm considering to make this non-mandatory.

Would I be the only VA doing that, or are there others out there who fully trust their pilots?

[Parkho]

It depends on what you expect from your airline. For instance, if you like to show live flights on your website's front page then you will need an ACARS to do so but I've seen virtual airlines based on FSPassengers where all the pilot needs to do is to send the flight to the website and the website's just storing the data and basically show them in a table. Reports even don't have to get accepted or rejected as it's just DB to store data, so it's really up to you. You can even go further and create a form where the pilot can fill out the info of their flight and just submit it to your website and that can be stored in your DB for any other uses.

[CPC900]

Some VA's I have seen in the past have had RIDICULOUS amounts of hours shown by pilots. ANd sometimes in a short amount of time. Because some "kids" want to be #1 on the hours chart Sad, but true.

[CrashGordon]

I think it definitely depends on who your members are. If they are kids that think pilot rank actually means something, you will need to require some sort of proof. If you have a more adult population, it isn't so much of an issue. My VA will be opening in its 5th or 6th iteration in the past 5 years, On Oct 31, but it will accept only members of our FS forum. We know most of the people so we will allow manual PIREPS, especially for those whose computers can barely run their flight simulator without any extra add-ons.

From my own point of view, I've always looked at things like live maps as incentives for the, "look, Ma, I'm flying", crowd. I'm too old for that.

[CPC900]

I've always looked at things like live maps as incentives for the, "look, Ma, I'm flying", crowd

Your quote kind of makes it seem pointless to even join a Virtual Airline, don't ya think?!

[CrashGordon]

Not at all. Sharing routes, aircraft and experiences, make up a much more important part of it than seeing oneself on a live map. ACARS provide an automatic means of recording flights and some find that handy, though the vagaries of internet connectivity, FS Connect and the natural perversity of software, can make the experience less than wonderful.

My view has always been to provide interesting routes and aircraft choices and make it about flying. The business stuff takes a definite back seat. It all depends on the type of members you want to attract.

[lewisboy11]

A lot of airlines do it. Maybe you should do it on a trust basis. I.e, if they have been with the Airline for 'so long' or if they have flown 'this many hours' with an Acars, you allow them to manually submit?

Just an idea

[mischka]

lewis, the idea is good on first thought, but the problem is rather that ppl can't be bothered to install a tool - in case they haven't already flown for another va that requires acars.

[Strider]

I have an acars program custom made for me, I dont require pilots use it, it is a bonus. A lot of the members are nor even 18 yet, and are still thought submitting valid pireps even when they file it manually. I think it depends on who runs the VA, and how it is run. If you do not put too much strain on the pilot, like having to file 5 pireps a month to stay active, even if they file manual pireps, they will submit an honest pirep. Also you need to know what is a true flight and what isn't, by actually flying them yourself. So lets say for excample, someone flies from New York to London, most VA owners know it should take around 7-8 hours, if someone comes along and files a manual pirep claiming to have done that flight in 15hours, then you obviously know it is a fake pirep. You can give a +/- 40 mins on top of what it would be if you had the perfect weather, and a direct route. I have seen very strict VA's where you can only fly online, which is good, but the fun factor goes down a lot. Also those VA's are only for the hard core advanced simmer, not for a novice. It is a delicate balance between realism and a fun filled hobby site.

[Jetwave]

Jetwave does not require ACARS.

Integrity solution: I require a fuel burn entry on the PiRep. If you do your homework by flying a lot and/or studying reports from the guys who do use ACARS you can come up with some ballpark fuel burns based on flight duration and can instantly tell when someone is BS-ing you. Like a 3 hour trip with 5000lbs... yeah right. Round numbers can also set off alarms.

Although the Mr. Bean's response is a good first step, its not too hard to figure out ETE, especially if its displayed in the Pilot Brief or on the schedule.

[Strider]

If you are going to cheat you are more likely to give yourself more hours then it says. I had one guy file a flight that lasted 11hours 20minutes, the flight distance is just over 200nm. And he claimed to have flown a 737-400. Obviously that is going to be a fake pirep. You should know that a 737-400 does not have the legs to fly for over 11hours. So you can tell by the hours and aircraft flown. Knowing your aircraft is a benefit also, as then you can tell a fake from the aircraft used.

[mischka]

Yeah. I had one guy sign up and then half hour later file a flight from gatwick to st. petersburg

That was the only exception though.

There's some good ideas and input here, thanks guys

[Stealthbird97]

If you pilots can't be asked to install a free ACARS system, they are too lazy to even be in a Virtual Airline.

If your pilots can't work out how to install and use an ACARS, they shouldn't even be in a virtual airline.

Manual PIREPS can be easily forged. I could sign up to anyone of your airlines and i'd get my fake pirep accepted by you. Its only idiots who get caught. And by idiots I mean people who just want to fly around like a terrorist, not follow the rules, has no comprehension or knowledge of aviation or even a willingness to learn. I would be begging for someone in my airline who flew in a default aircraft, instead of the freeware one my airline provides, to not file a pirep so i could boot them.

Just my opinion.

[CrashGordon]

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion, but there are a couple of point I'd like to bring up. First, what does technical expertise have to do with the ability to use a flight simulator? Second, if you have so little trust for people, What makes you think knowledge of computers is directly related to knowledge of aviation or willingness to abide by rules. If the default aircraft functions on someone's computer better than the one you provide, why force him to abandon the one that works better for him? If a person is going to fly a 3, 5, or 10 hour flight and have his simconnect die, or connectivity to your web site evaporate or his simulator throw a fatal error while he is on short final, how many times do you think those things will happen before he says the hell with it, and you never hear from him again? Want to eliminate forged pireps? eliminate automatic promotions that are based on ours. That gets rid of pilots chasing imaginary rank.

[Stealthbird97]

In reply to your comment.

If you are unable to install a program. Which is far easier that flying an aircraft. You clearly don't have the capacity to do anything complicated or realistically in the sim.. eg. If you can't install and setup a kACARS system, you won't be able to fly anything mildly complicated in flight simulator.

If you want to fly in default aircraft I suggest you don't fly for a Virtual Airline because I thought the whole point of a virtual airline was to replicate the operations of an airline as closely as possible. If you are flying in a default aircraft, what does that show? It shows that the pilot has absolutely no intention of learning a more complicated aircraft. That the pilot has no grasp of realism. The Airline has no grasp of realism.

If you are offering Freeware aircraft, which has a far better flight model than the default FS models, which WILL NOT work worse than the default, then they are highly uneducated. To be honest any VA letting pilots use GPS over an FMC should be disband.

Most ACARS that are decent use FSUIPC which doesn't crash. Not once in my 6 year usage of Flightsim have i ever had FSUIPC crash on me. Also ACARS systems don't break if they loose connection to your site they continue recording the flight and then you upload it at the end when you have re-established connection. But if you loose connection to a website, there's something wrong with the pilots internet or your websites servers are bad.

Also those sorts of problems are not the virtual airlines problem they are showing an underlying problem with the PILOTS setup. Your point it invalid because if the flight sim fails mid flight they will have to do the flight again anyway so doing it with a manual pirep isn't going to help them other than if their computer is so unstable it can't run more than one program at once.

Not everyone wants to have to fill in all of the information in a form anyway and what if you forget your start fuel. You can't just make it up.

You're making your airline more complicated than it needs to be by removing automation.

[mischka]

You're right on many accounts stealthbird, and my initial thinking was the same: how can someone who is too stupid to install a simple program actually fly an aircraft, simulated or otherwise?

Then I thought back to the time when I first came across an acars system, just after signing up for austrian virtual airlines. I had about 1700 hours of flight behind me for a VA that doesn't use acars and i was, let's say, quite irritated about the mandatory aspect of using an acars system, and having to install aditional software.

I updated my FAQ to such extent that users either need to provide a link to vataware.com tracker link with a manually filed pirep, or use an acars system.

[CrashGordon]

I'm amazed at the bogus arguments used to justify the simple fact that you do not trust your pilots. Sites sometimes hiccup, as do ISPs. Google will provide pages of references to FSUIPC crashing.

As for all that stuff about realism, please don't make me laugh. All real world pilots can watch TV, answer the front door and talk to their friends on the phone, while flying, right? All real world pilots are alone on the flight deck, right? Real world pilots can set the autopilot, go to bed and land the next morning, right? And surely, they must all be able to avert disaster by resetting things and starting over, right?

If you want to take the elitist approach to running a VA, have fun. I'd much rather provide a means to have people enhance their enjoyment of FS by providing a mechanism for shared experience and purpose, not, "Look Ma, I can fly PMDG".

BTW, using FS for six years doesn't impress me. I've been using it since version 1.0.

[Stealthbird97]

Oh woopty do. Congratulations. Wow. Flight Simulator 1.0. Yeah. I couldn't have ever used that because I wasn't born then. In-fact I wasn't born until Flight Simulator 98.

An interesting question is. Can you fly the PMDG 737 NGX? Becuase I can and I'm considerably younger than you if you used FS 1.0 when it was available back in 1982.

As for all that stuff about realism, please don't make me laugh. All real world pilots can watch TV, answer the front door and talk to their friends on the phone, while flying, right? All real world pilots are alone on the flight deck, right? Real world pilots can set the autopilot, go to bed and land the next morning, right? And surely, they must all be able to avert disaster by resetting things and starting over, right?

No they can't. It doesn't mean you have to not do any of that while flying for a VA.

I do fly long flights but by no means am i there for the whole 12 hours. In fact I do put it on autopilot and go to bed and then wake up 2 hours or so before landing. But that because I have sufficient knowledge of the aircraft systems to know that its not going to randomly start descending.

I do follow the checklists. I do everything to the highest realism I can achieve.

I would not want 10 year olds flying for my airline. Not only would it require extra paper work on my end in order to be COPPA compliant but they simply can't do anything properly. Neither would I want people who were ridiculously unprofessional flying for my airline.

I'm fine with people flying around and having a bit of fun, but if you want to be in a decent virtual airline. You're going to have to follow the rules. ie. < 250kt below 10000. Do half decent landings < 500ft/m. Etc.

You can't get that sort of information from a Manual Pirep.

Lets see.

Manaul Pirep.

Airline

Flight Number

Dep Airport

Arrival Airport

Aircraft

Fuel Used*

Flight Time*

Route

Comments

* Who says its not made up. Its your word against theirs.

ACARS

Airline

Flight Number

Departure Airport

Arrival Airport

Sim Aircraft Type - the Exact Aircraft the pilot flew.

Boarding Time

Off Block Time

Pushback Time

Taxi Time

Take off Time

Takeoff Speed, Pitch and Fuel

Weather Details

Gear up Altitude

Flaps

Climb Start Time

Top of Clime Time

Cruise time

Top of Decent Time

Desent Time

Approach Time

Gear Down Time

Landing Rate, Pitch and Fuel.

Landing Weather

Taxi In Time

Block On Time

Comments

All EXACT Values. Can't be made up or tampered with.

Not only that but it also tells you if

Exact Possition in the world at any given time.

The Pilot Paused the Flight and for how long

Slews

The Sim Rate

If they refueled mid flight.

Overspeed warnings

Stall Warnings

Some Custom ACARS have the ability to check if the pilot is actually flying but randomly causing a popup to show and the pilot has to click it as quickly as they can. The System times how long it takes and so when checking pireps, admins of thr system can see if the pilot was actually there when the popup came up.

It also allows the functionality of

The Live Map.

You must be mad for letting them do Manual PIREPS without any other evidence of them actuall doing the flight like a VATaware report or even a screenshot of the FS Flight Analysis screen.

Also my site has never went down in the whole year it has been live. In fact i believe my Web host has a backup server so if there are any updates being done or the main one goes down. It automatically switches. The Website is Geo Redundant. And that for something like $5 a month and again like i said, most ACARS programs don't have to send the flight pirep until you click "file pirep" and if it fails to connect, it backs up the file and you can send it again at another time when your poor internet comes back.

I hope thats ending the argument.

[mischka]

Oh woopty do. Congratulations. Wow. Flight Simulator 1.0. Yeah. I couldn't have ever used that because I wasn't born then. In-fact I wasn't born until Flight Simulator 98.

Hmmm... that makes you like... 14? ish?

I would not want 10 year olds flying for my airline.

Hows that different from a 14-year old? Not much, from the perspective of a 30+.. all <20 = kids

You must be mad for letting them do Manual PIREPS without any other evidence of them actuall doing the flight like a VATaware report or even a screenshot of the FS Flight Analysis screen.

if they log their flight online, that can't be tampered with either.. not the time and route anyway, which is the important bit Vatsim won't keep the flight track if you crashed... you have to "arrive" and stay online until the status propagates to vataware. There's no point in lying about fuel consumption - if you know your fleet, you know the approximate fuel flow per hour.

In my previous VA, which was flightgear based, we had no acars at all and it was never a problem.

[aarbee]

@Stealthbird.

We have a saying overhere. "Hoe de waard is zo vertrouwd hij zijn gasten."

Which comes very close to "People who mistrust others, are probably not te be trusted themselves".

But the trues will be somewhere in the middle.

I hope not you take it to harsh, as I do not mean it that harsh. But you talk a bit like sub 16.

For me it is, give a little, take a little. Give a bit trust, get more trust back.

And the experience with people over the years learned me so much, that those who do not want to fly drop out in the end.

You cannot force that by acars tools. They might fill in fake reports, but I really doubt it will be more then 20. Because even that will be to much. And even then, am I there to control that?

In my VA, the primary PIREP is created via the website.

And I have them look at ACARS, because it can be a little bit easier, and gives the pilots an extra logging. And even one pilot is using the Google maps on the site, to fiddle out where he is about flying.

He sometimes flies 2 hours on a trip for 1 hour. So what? He is giving the passengers an extra sightseeing. And when he is landing at -1500 ft, I am sure he wanted to give his passengers a thrill. ;-)

Great you can fly PMDG planes. I cannot. I do not even have them. And I do not care.

And I am pretty sure that you are a great aviator. And an exelent, VA boss. And your stats are probably better then mine. And you probably land much better then I do.

And I do not care.

Flying is fun, a hobby for me. And am extending that into a VA. A hobby should be fun, and not only digging into figures.

Have fun.

@CrashGordon.

Geez, what? Version 1.0? You beat me by 1 version.

I started in 1987 with version 2.0. On a green hercules monitor.

Those where fundays. IF you saw a line, you knew that was a runway. Now you have to look twice, else you land on a taxiway or a highway. ;-)

[CrashGordon]

I hadn't thought to start a war. I think it is sad that people participating in a hobby, fall into the same trap that has screwed up the rest of the world. That trap is, "Ours is the only right way to do things". If people want super-realism, fine. But I'd never be interested in joining such an airline and really wouldn't want a pilot who is looking for that sort of thing, joining mine. It wouldn't be a happy relationship.

Now, the question has been asked, can I fly the PMDG 737 NGX. I own and fly it and the PMDG 747, MD-11 and Jetstream. Now, ask me how often I fly them. Truth is, that even after spending all that money, I much prefer aircraft that are less of a "chore". I much prefer the Quality wings BAe because I can choose the level of complexity I'm in the mood for. It's a hobby, not a job. I have no delusions that using FS, even in a VA, makes me a pilot, so I have nothing to prove.

So, how often do your pilots have physicals and vision exams? What, they don't? What kind of realism is that?

Actually, my flight simulator use predates FS 1.0 for the PC. I used the sublogic version for the Commodore, before that. When I put together my first PC-XT clone, I got FS 1.0 to determine if my computer was truly PC_XT compatible.

[Stealthbird97]

Hmmm... that makes you like... 14? ish?

Hows that different from a 14-year old? Not much, from the perspective of a 30+.. all <20 = kids

if they log their flight online, that can't be tampered with either.. not the time and route anyway, which is the important bit Vatsim won't keep the flight track if you crashed... you have to "arrive" and stay online until the status propagates to vataware. There's no point in lying about fuel consumption - if you know your fleet, you know the approximate fuel flow per hour.

In my previous VA, which was flightgear based, we had no acars at all and it was never a problem.

I was actually talking to Gordon. I did read the fact that you do let them do manuals pireps providing they fly online. He did not say that is a requirement of his airline. Please assume you are replying to the comment immediately before unless you quote. Thanks.

[Stealthbird97]

@Stealthbird.

We have a saying overhere. "Hoe de waard is zo vertrouwd hij zijn gasten."

Which comes very close to "People who mistrust others, are probably not te be trusted themselves".

But the trues will be somewhere in the middle.

I hope not you take it to harsh, as I do not mean it that harsh. But you talk a bit like sub 16.

For me it is, give a little, take a little. Give a bit trust, get more trust back.

And the experience with people over the years learned me so much, that those who do not want to fly drop out in the end.

You cannot force that by acars tools. They might fill in fake reports, but I really doubt it will be more then 20. Because even that will be to much. And even then, am I there to control that?

In my VA, the primary PIREP is created via the website.

And I have them look at ACARS, because it can be a little bit easier, and gives the pilots an extra logging. And even one pilot is using the Google maps on the site, to fiddle out where he is about flying.

He sometimes flies 2 hours on a trip for 1 hour. So what? He is giving the passengers an extra sightseeing. And when he is landing at -1500 ft, I am sure he wanted to give his passengers a thrill. ;-)

Great you can fly PMDG planes. I cannot. I do not even have them. And I do not care.

And I am pretty sure that you are a great aviator. And an exelent, VA boss. And your stats are probably better then mine. And you probably land much better then I do.

And I do not care.

Flying is fun, a hobby for me. And am extending that into a VA. A hobby should be fun, and not only digging into figures.

Have fun.

@CrashGordon.

Geez, what? Version 1.0? You beat me by 1 version.

I started in 1987 with version 2.0. On a green hercules monitor.

Those where fundays. IF you saw a line, you knew that was a runway. Now you have to look twice, else you land on a taxiway or a highway. ;-)

The simple answer to what you say I could take harsh is the fact I am sub-16.

Also If you want a truly scalable airline. It will be a lot harder to monitor than by doing ACARS pireps. Yeah its fine allowing manual pireps if your airline has 5 people in it and you know all of them. But the thing is I don't know everyone in my airline. Some of them are not British and have a lesser comprehension of English. It's just easier to treat everyone the same and everyone use a ACARS system. We've paid for it to be customized, for their convenience, so they better bloody use it.

Where you talk about the flight scenario. 1. American Airlines/Delta/British Airways WILL NOT LET its pilots do joyrides. Neither would ATC as you would be doing IFR. As far as i'm concerned that's wasting fuel by increasing the route distance.

2. A 1500ft WOULD WRITE OFF the plane. The whole plane would be in pieces and the PILOTS WILL be killed. That is a scientific fact. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-plane-crash. You may have to find the Nat Geo version if you are in america.

I guess my airline is targeted completely differently to yours. Mine was founded by people who actually wanted to be ATP and so realism standards are far higher.

[aarbee]

The simple answer to what you say I could take harsh is the fact I am sub-16.

Also If you want a truly scalable airline. It will be a lot harder to monitor than by doing ACARS pireps. Yeah its fine allowing manual pireps if your airline has 5 people in it and you know all of them. But the thing is I don't know everyone in my airline. Some of them are not British and have a lesser comprehension of English. It's just easier to treat everyone the same and everyone use a ACARS system. We've paid for it to be customized, for their convenience, so they better bloody use it.

Where you talk about the flight scenario. 1. American Airlines/Delta/British Airways WILL NOT LET its pilots do joyrides. Neither would ATC as you would be doing IFR. As far as i'm concerned that's wasting fuel by increasing the route distance.

2. A 1500ft WOULD WRITE OFF the plane. The whole plane would be in pieces and the PILOTS WILL be killed. That is a scientific fact. http://www.channel4....the-plane-crash. You may have to find the Nat Geo version if you are in america.

I guess my airline is targeted completely differently to yours. Mine was founded by people who actually wanted to be ATP and so realism standards are far higher.

Yes that happens when you are sub 16.

[CrashGordon]

I was actually talking to Gordon. I did read the fact that you do let them do manuals pireps providing they fly online. He did not say that is a requirement of his airline. Please assume you are replying to the comment immediately before unless you quote. Thanks.

I didn't know that running your VA also put you in charge of this forum.

The simple answer to what you say I could take harsh is the fact I am sub-16.

Also If you want a truly scalable airline. It will be a lot harder to monitor than by doing ACARS pireps. Yeah its fine allowing manual pireps if your airline has 5 people in it and you know all of them. But the thing is I don't know everyone in my airline. Some of them are not British and have a lesser comprehension of English. It's just easier to treat everyone the same and everyone use a ACARS system. We've paid for it to be customized, for their convenience, so they better bloody use it.

Do you insist on a dress code, while they are flying, as well? And what the holy heck is a "truly scalable airline", as it pertains to a VA?

Where you talk about the flight scenario. 1. American Airlines/Delta/British Airways WILL NOT LET its pilots do joyrides. Neither would ATC as you would be doing IFR. As far as i'm concerned that's wasting fuel by increasing the route distance.

2. A 1500ft WOULD WRITE OFF the plane. The whole plane would be in pieces and the PILOTS WILL be killed. That is a scientific fact. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-plane-crash. You may have to find the Nat Geo version if you are in america.

I guess my airline is targeted completely differently to yours. Mine was founded by people who actually wanted to be ATP and so realism standards are far higher.

And, of course, yours is better, right? When your pilots do something you regard as catastrophic, do you retire them as dead? I'm sorry my standards are so low, compared to yours. I solemnly promise never to join your VA.

[mseiwald]

Sorry guys but this discussion is ridiculous. There are a lot of virtual pilots that look for a realistic VA and also lots of pilots just want to have some fun flying community. I think everyone can run HIS own VA like he wishes and i'm pretty sure both concepts attract a different type of flightsim fan. My VA hellenic airways is targeted on realism. No i don't ask my pilots to sit in front of their PC for 12 hours or send me medical certificates but our operations will be maintained on a as realistic as possible in FS level. We are looking for pilots who are able to fly ATS routings correct and land their planes without destroying the Aircraft with -1500ft/m touchdown. Pilots who aren't able to program a FMC or fly an ILS approach can learn it in our flight training center. You can trust me there are enough people interested in an realistic operation.

Other pilots who aren't will more likely join your VA Gordon. So everyone offers a different Service that fits the needs of different types of pilots. I really see no Point in this discussion.

[Stealthbird97]

Well said. Its ended now.

Just pointing out, Quoting everything I say and then putting a sarcastic/smart/witty comment under it doesn't make you look big or smart. Neither is it intimidating. It just makes you sink to a lower level.

Maybe an idea to locked the post now before this goes further. Thanks. I believe that mischka has received his answers. There is nothing further to be discussed.

[aarbee]

I know who the person is, whois descending to fast, and sometimes overlooking the airport. He is 70+ years old, maybe 80. And I have compasion with him. But he is learning.

Yet I would not accept it from mister perfect. ;-)

And indeed the discussion is getting out of hand. I expected that.

[Stealthbird97]

That didn't make much sense.

I know who the person is, whois descending to fast, and sometimes overlooking the airport.

[CrashGordon]

Well said. Its ended now.

Just pointing out, Quoting everything I say and then putting a sarcastic/smart/witty comment under it doesn't make you look big or smart. Neither is it intimidating. It just makes you sink to a lower level.

Maybe an idea to locked the post now before this goes further. Thanks. I believe that mischka has received his answers. There is nothing further to be discussed.

Ah, yes. When all else fails, censorship will surely succeed. Don't bother. I have no further time to waste on this.